Dr. Schoenfeld: Now, I want to point out though, even if you're lifting weights, if you are getting insufficient protein, you're going to leach some muscle. So, you need to still take in sufficient protein. And there's actually evidence that you need more protein than what has been shown for people at maintenance or above to maintain muscle or even to gain it, slightly, when you're in a caloric deficit. So, that actually increases protein needs, to some extent.

Dr. Patrick: And can you talk about, like, what those requirements are?

Dr. Schoenfeld: Yeah, sure. So, we start to get into generalizations. So, the general literature shows somewhere around 1.6 to 1.8 grams per kilogram per day of protein is required for resistance-training people, which is about double the RDA. So, RDA for sedentary individuals, is around 0.8 grams per kilogram per day. You need roughly double that, you know, to maintain or to promote anabolism while you're resistance training. The upper confidence interval is about 2.2 grams per kilogram. So, meaning that, to really be on the safe side. For the vast majority of people, if you're in the gen pop, it's probably not going to make a difference, but if you're a bodybuilder, when I'm coaching bodybuilders and consulting with them, it really does not hurt to take in more protein. I mean, there's a lot of myths about kidney damage. In healthy individuals, no good evidence that there's any negative effects on renal function, certainly on bone density. These are all unsupported, from my reading of the literature.

So, there's not necessarily a downside to it, you have to look at cost/benefit, everything is cost/benefit. For bodybuilders, I would say go up to 2 grams per kilogram per day, which roughly around, for those of us in the States, it's about a gram per pound, it's not going to hurt. But I would say that becomes even more important to stay in that upper realm. So, if you're at 1.6, if you're especially in a surplus, the needs for protein are going to be encompassed because the body isn't going to leach protein needs. When you start getting into a deficit, that's where I think it becomes even more important to be at that upper realm, 2.0, 2.2 grams per kilogram.

Dr. Patrick: So, people that are...let's say people that are obese. And I always say "obese" or "overweight," maybe it's important to distinguish these two, based on what you just said, but, if they are obese and/or, like, you know, overweight and they're wanting to lose fat mass, right, should they be calculating their protein intake based on their targeted weight? Because if they're like, you know, 300 pounds, for example, or, you know, that's a lot of protein, right? So...

Dr. Schoenfeld: Yeah, it's a great question, and the answer is no. So, the protein needs have been based on men and women who are relatively lean. I want to say "relatively," for the vast majority of the population they would consider it lean. So, for guys somewhere like in the 12% to 15% body-fat range, for women around 20% body fat or so. So, if you are 300 pounds and you should be 200 pounds, let's say, you would calculate it at the weight that you would be where you would be at your lean weight, you know, for a guy, 12% to 15% body fat.

So, we can then regress to saying, "Base it on lean mass," but most people aren't getting DEXA scans to determine their lean mass or even, you know, they're not going out and getting body-fat caliper measurements. It's just not in the realm of what most people are going to do. When you can make a general estimate, these are not precise measurements, it's not like...you know, people think that we're doing these experiments and they really nail it down into these precise areas, they're generalized recommendations based upon what we know. And there's going to be variations around the mean, you're always going to have people that are...when we do research, we report the means, as you well know, which are the averages. But people aren't an average, you get some people that are up here, some people here, and they average out here.

So, yeah. So, if you're overweight/obese, you want to figure your protein needs at what you would be at a relatively lean weight. You know, let's say, again, for a guy, 10-12-15% body fat. I will say this, it doesn't hurt to take in, like I said, a little extra protein. On the good side, protein is very difficult to store as body fat, much more difficult than carbohydrates and fat, so, if you're going to err on the side of question, that's what you'd want to err on the side of, you know, taking in a little more protein, if your goal is weight loss, at the expense of carbs and fat.

Dr. Patrick: Right. Now, we had Stuart Phillips on the podcast, a colleague of yours, and he was talking about, with the protein requirements, like, the buy-in being more like, you know, just to get, like, at least 1.2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. And for me, I was like, "Okay, because that's what I'm going to try to aim for," but then, as I started to do more resistance training, I realized I was meeting the buy-in but I wasn't meeting the 1.6. And so, I have to now increase...like, a can of sardines will get me there. Like, I need about 16 to 20 more grams a day.

So, you know, for people like my dad, for example, he's in his 70s and, like, good luck getting him to 1.6. I'm trying to get him to 1.2, right, I'm trying to prevent him from just completely depleting his amino acids from his muscle every day, which he's kind of doing. So, he has to supplement and do the protein shakes and stuff like that, and I'm happy at least to get him there. Next step would be even 1.6, you know. And, of course, adding the resistance training, which should be essential, but I haven't been able to get to that point yet.

So, I wanted to mention that with the protein requirements because, you know, there was, like, I know the RDA is so low, 0.8. And Stuart talked a little bit about, like, some of the flaws in the early studies that were done to calculate that. And I'm just, like, wondering when is it time to reassess this, you know, and change it? Because a lot of people think they're getting enough protein and many people don't even get the RDA.

Dr. Schoenfeld: So, to address that, two things I think that are important. So, 1.2 is better than 0.8, certainly, but, I mean, there's good literature showing we've done work on this that, if you want to maximize anabolism...so, again, it doesn't mean that you're not going to gain any muscle if you're taking in 1.2 but it will impair the gains that you're going to get, and especially when you're talking about older individuals when they're anabolically-resistant. So, it becomes even more important.

And I think this is another important thing when you're dealing with older individuals, not only anabolic resistance to resistance training but also to protein where the per-dose aspects need to be higher, to some extent, to get what's called leucine, which is one of the essential amino acids. And there's, I don't know how deep you want to get here, but there's a leucine threshold, leucine is the amino acid that seems to kick-start the muscle-growth process. And it seems to be somewhat higher, at least some of the literature does show, that, in older individuals, getting more leucine is important to kick-start that process.

As you point out though, unfairly, for older individuals, it becomes increasingly difficult to get protein in. And I'm a big fan of whole foods, like, supplementation is something that you do when you cannot get whole foods in, but, as you get older, taste buds start to dissipate, your food does not have good taste, so, older individuals have difficulty chewing sometimes too. And that is where supplementation can come in, it's much easier to drink a whey-protein or casein or egg-protein shake and get that protein in through supplemental means if you're not meeting your daily requirements. And for anyone. I mean, it seems that women often also are not programmed to take protein as much. And yeah, it's just very easy to do it through protein shakes if you're not going to be able to do it through whole foods.

Dr. Patrick: What's the leucine thresh...in terms of protein, obviously, we'll can get into the vegan, vegetarian, because it's a whole other thing, but, if you're eating meat, chicken, poultry, fish, if you're getting the essential amino acids, what gram dose per meal would you say would be important for crossing that leucine threshold, and what age?

Dr. Schoenfeld: Yeah. So, these aren't, again, hard cutoffs in either of those. I've seen 3 grams, where it starts to increase from 2 to 3 grams of leucine as you get older. Where is that cut off from being, quote unquote, older? There isn't one. And I certainly don't think you need to take leucine as a supplement if you're taking in a high-quality protein source, you know, you're eating meat-based proteins. Which, by the way, aren't just meat, they're also milk and eggs, etc. So, proteins from, I should say, animal-based sources. You're going to be getting quality proteins that are rich in leucine. And again, it's just getting the proper dosages, it's been shown there is a graded...there's a recent study out of Luc van Loon's lab, is a terrific protein researcher in the Netherlands, and they looked at...again, my memory now, it's been a while since I looked at the study, but they did 0, 15 grams of protein, I believe they used whey, 30 and 45 I think it was. But anyway, it showed a dose-response relationship for muscle protein synthesis where they kept getting a greater response.

Now, the curve, it wasn't a linear relationship, so, there was, you know, more parabolic where it started to trail off after 30 grams, but it did continue on above the 30 grams. So, it just shows that in older individuals that it's needed to take more per-dose protein to hit that leucine threshold, particularly in the time after resistance training.

Dr. Patrick: I mean, yeah, that's talking about a dose that you're going to have in your animal products. But then you're also probably going to have a protein shake with it because it's quite...I mean, I guess unless you can eat large large large steaks and stuff. But for me I know, as a female too, I'm often...

Dr. Schoenfeld: I mean, 4 ounces of chicken is 30 grams of protein or so.

Dr. Patrick: Is it though?

Dr. Schoenfeld: Yeah. I mean, you know, if you got...

Dr. Patrick: I eat 4 ounces of chicken, yeah. Pretty good.